Insights from the Top | Law Firm Leadership: Amy Stewart
David Teece speaks with Amy Stewart, founding partner of Stewart Law Group in Dallas. They talk about the hallmark of her firm—that you don’t have to sacrifice merit to get diversity—as well as how sports influenced her leadership style, the history of Stewart Law Group, and maintaining a strong firm culture.
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Transcript
[00:00:38] David Teece: Hello, my name is David Teece. I’m executive chairman of Berkeley Research Group and a professor at the University of California, Berkeley. In this episode, I’ll speak with Amy Stewart, founding partner of the Stewart Law Group, a Dallas-based boutique law firm known for its unique culture and leadership approach. Today, we’ll discuss how the Stewart Law Group fosters an inclusive workplace for young lawyers, why diversity and excellence are not mutually exclusive concepts, and the firm’s plans for future growth.
Well, Amy, you are an emerging force in the legal profession. I've got one preliminary question to put to you before we go into things in a little more detail. I thought one of the most striking things you said was that you founded the firm Stewart Law Group to basically prove that you didn't have to sacrifice merit to get diversity, and that you've made that a hallmark of what you've been doing.
And, of course, that is an absolutely wonderful thing that people need to understand, but it doesn't come easily. And so, I've read a lot about the training programs and all the other things you're doing. Perhaps you can begin by how you've proven that, what work it took to get there, and how well recognized you are for achieving that.
[00:02:02] Amy Stewart: First of all, thanks for the opportunity to be on the podcast. Stewart Law Group has been around for five years, and I'm based in Dallas, Texas, but we do work all across the country. And what I found here in Dallas specifically is that there were not a lot of minorities handling commercial litigation, labor and employment litigation on the defense side. There are a lot of exceptional lawyers that are handling plaintiffs-related work, as well as family law and criminal law, but I can show you on two hands the amount of attorneys who are doing complex commercial litigation, labor and employment for the management side, for the business side.
And so, I bounced around a bunch of firms here in Dallas, and then five years ago, I kept feeling like I was square peg–round hole, that analogy. And so I said, you know, I think I need to create this. And I had no idea what I was doing. I'm the first in my family to go to college and then obviously to law school. And no one in my family's an entrepreneur, which is what's required to start a firm. So we just went for it, you know.
And I think that comes from my sports background—that you miss every shot that you don't take. And we've been ultra-successful over the last five years. Because we are proving day in and day out—which is what I coach my people—that diversity and excellence are not mutually exclusive. We just need a shot. We just need our opportunity.
[00:03:39] DT: That's very, very incredible and amazing and delightful. And how do you keep it that way? Is this something you have to work on every day, or has it now got its own momentum?
[00:03:50] AS: No, it's an everyday thing. It again goes back to my sports background that you've got to stay in shape; you got to do it every day. It's required by me to push that for all of our employees, attorneys, paralegals, staff, everyone. We have to excel, and that's what's required to win.
Early on, when I had the firm, I tried to delegate that to others, and it didn't work. And we kind of lost our way, especially with the pandemic and not being around each other, because you can feel culture. You know when you walk into a positive environment. You know when you walk into a negative one. And so, there was a lot of additional time that I had to take, spending time with my people individually, as well as a group, to make sure that our culture remains strong.
[00:04:40] DT: Well, you're right. The culture is not what you say, it's what you do. And I think you gave an excellent illustration of that.
But let's come back to the other ingredients while we're on it. You mentioned your sports background and staying competitive and cooperative too, because it's a team that wins.
But there's got to be other things in your background that have enabled you to get where you are. You mentioned mentors along the way; but your family must be especially proud of you, and it is exceptional what you've been able to achieve here. So can you finger some of the other things that have helped you get where you are? And also the things that helped you to stay where you are and to move ahead from where you are?
[00:05:20] AS: Yeah. So first, I'm originally from the “metropolis” of High Point, North Carolina. Was raised by two great parents. I'm a ‘70s’ baby. My mom is white, and my dad is Black. So growing up in the South was a tad bit difficult in the ‘70s and ‘80s in North Carolina. So I think that experience really taught me, frankly, to float between two different groups of people and acclimate and feel comfortable within two groups. I think it enabled me to be able to deal with challenges and adversity growing up that way.
My dad was a drill sergeant in the Marines. So I think a lot of my discipline comes from that. I remember specifically when we lived in Camp Pendleton, running around as a little kid and watching my dad come home in his fatigues and the quarter bouncing off the bed. And room had to be straightened up. Bed had to be made. And I think, you know, that's ingrained in who I am.
Sports taught me how to be a good teammate, how to be a good leader, how to, again, overcome adversity. Like I said before, you miss every shot you don't take. I wouldn't say I am a risky person, but I will take my shot. And then, along the way, I learned to ask for help and have got amazing mentors in my life like Bob Craig, Mike Bassett, and others who have helped me figure out how to have a law firm and how to run a business and how to be a good marketer.
[00:06:57] DT: You had mentioned the mentors, and then in an interview you also pointed out that at some point you had to be your authentic self. It wasn't a matter of just emulating those wonderful mentors, but being yourself at the same time. And that was a pivot point for you that enabled you to move further ahead. So maybe explain that one a little bit to us.
[00:07:18] AS: Yeah, so again, like I spoke about before, there's not a lot of folks that look like me who are representing large Fortune 100 companies in litigation. All of my mentors, for the most part, were older white men. And so, I would watch them, and I'd try to do exactly what they did, emulate them, take what they're doing and put that in practice. And probably six or seven years ago I realized, you know what, I'm trying my best to be the best older white man I can be, but this look is not working for me. And I started having the most success in my professional life when I just showed up as me. I took all the great skills and work ethic and all of those things that they taught me, but I showed up as me. And I showed up as my authentic self.
And so, that's one of the things for our firm, is that I don't want code switching. I don't want people changing who they are depending on the environment. I want people to show up as their authentic self. Now that doesn't mean you don't have to change your interactions with people based on the room that you're in, but you don't have to sacrifice who you are to be successful.
[00:08:40] DT: And did that make you feel at ease? Did it make you better as a lawyer? Did it make you learn faster? I mean, what were the consequences of being able to break out in that fashion?
[00:08:53] AS: It was scary, and it was vulnerable to say it's enough to be me, to show up as myself and to handle these matters. And to talk to people and articulate what the firm is about in my own words, and not just parroting my mentors and how they did business development or how they spoke to the court. And so, it was very challenging at the beginning. Frankly, it may have been one of the most challenging things for me to do—to kind of step into who I am fully as a person and say take it or leave it and not try to be somebody I wasn't.
[00:09:32] DT: Let's go back to another issue you touched on, which was the pandemic and how the culture started to fray a little bit when you weren't front and center and together with your people. So, explain what you've learned from the pandemic, and whether you're all back in the office, and how you see the work environment today.
[00:09:52] AS: So when we started the firm five years ago, the concept was that we would be a virtual law firm. Part of that was because I didn't want the overhead of having a lease, right? And our culture was so strong before the pandemic, when we were hiring new attorneys, they wanted to be in the office and engage with each other. So we went through two expansions of the space that we have, and frankly, the last expansion, it was move-in ready two weeks before the pandemic. So, I had all this wonderful new space that nobody was in for a year and a half, two years. It was beautiful. Nobody was here. So the transition to having to work virtually was not an issue for us, because that is kind of the foundation of the firm: to be able to bob and weave, and move and change when necessary.
The issue was going back to the culture. The culture that was so strong, that made people say, “I want to be in the office,” frayed when we were only on screens with one another. So I intentionally started creating routine meetings on Teams every week. Once it was safe enough for us to get together six feet apart, we started meeting at outdoor restaurants here in Dallas, which was fun. Again, we're very competitive, so we had a lot of game days, game nights, just so that we could engage with one another. And so, that kind of got us through the pandemic.
Since the pandemic, I've continued to maintain the office space, obviously, but people don't need to come in unless we are having a lunch and learn where we talk about specific topics—like the one in a couple of weeks will be about marketing. And so, people come in and out as they please. We kind of have more of a hoteling type environment now at the office. Our culture continues to be strong because we've continued some of the things that we used during the pandemic. We use Teams a lot to communicate and to hold each other accountable with deadlines and communicating and making sure everybody is where they're supposed to be.
I have had zero issues with paralegals or any of our attorneys being available at a moment's notice if necessary. If we got to go to a TRO hearing, we don't have any issues related to entering time that I didn't have before the pandemic. And frankly, if I require folks to come back into the office, I know that I could be risking losing some really great talent who do not need to be in the office every day to do their job.
Now there are some folks on our team, frankly, that need the routine of coming into the office, sitting at their desk. And they're here, and they appreciate that about themselves. So, we are still hoteling. It's working out right now, and I really don't think there's the requirement anymore to be butts in seats at 8:00 a.m.
[00:12:57] DT: You have a Dallas office, so are you contemplating offices elsewhere? Or do you have offices elsewhere? And can you double, triple, quintuple the size of the firm and keep that robust culture?
[00:13:11] AS: I think we can keep the culture. I feel fortunate that I'm building my own firm and building it after learning lessons from being at other firms. In regard to business development, our culture is so strong—and it's a servant leadership-type culture—that if we do hire someone who doesn't fit the culture, we realize that pretty soon, and we separate on good terms. Every culture is not for everybody. And what you see about us in social media and the posts that I have out there: it is who we are. And that was very important to me that what you see on the outside is what is in the inside.
About opening offices: that was not something that I was intending to do so quickly, but my husband, Ed Stewart, works at the University of Southern California now, and he oversees football for USC. And so, he got that job last August and he broke our rule. Our rule was he cannot take a job in any state where I had to take another bar exam. Well, he is in default because I am now studying for your glorious California bar exam. So I'm doing that because it's a great opportunity to open up another office, and I would love to practice in California. I'm a labor and employment lawyer, right? So I mean, I hear you guys have some funky laws out there. I have some corporations that need my assistance. So definitely a California office.
And then I'm originally from North Carolina, like I said, and I've had some clients who have asked about us having a presence in Charlotte, North Carolina, because we do a lot of financial work. And so, looking at that.
And then the wild card—I don't know why this is in my head, but every time I say no, it comes back—is Oklahoma City, because that is an easy driving distance from Dallas, if necessary. It's one of the fastest-growing metropolitan areas for business in the country, and there are no firms that look like my firm there. And so, those are additional opportunities for Stewart Law Group.
[00:15:20] DT: Coming back to the California Bar Exam, one of the things I noticed is a very large number of credentials that you have. And I wonder the extent to which your culture involves pointing people in that direction and supporting them as they do that. Let's talk a little bit about the training programs you have, because I know they must be important to what you've achieved.
[00:15:43] AS: When you come to Stewart Law Group, you're not just here to bill hours. I feel like it's bigger than me, and it's about—especially in Dallas—representation matters. Showing that if I can do it, you can absolutely do it. And so, we have a few programs. One is our employee empowerment program, where the firm invests a certain amount of money with every single associate, partner, and paralegal for their business development each year. What we do is, at the beginning of the year, I sit down with all of them and figure out what their specific goals are, because they may not be anything that I'm aware of or what I do. So what is your goal? And then we come up with a game plan on how to get there.
And then, I just don't give money and say, go forth and be great. We kind of have to keep stats on what people are doing. So, for example, a partner and associate of mine just went to a conference last week. And these things come to me innately; it's just in my DNA that this is what you're supposed to do. But many people don't know that before you go to a conference, you should ask for the list of attendees, or review the list of programs and see which ones you want to go to, and plan your event. Plan your stay; who are you going to talk to? And try to find people going to the conference that you already know, so you can make sure to make the impact when you're there.
And then you have: what's your game plan when you get there? Who are the people that you want to meet? What are the programs you want to go to?
All the while you have to continue to do your day job. And then the part that people do not do—which is detrimental to building their network in the book of business—is they don't do the follow up. That's one of the most important parts of the basketball shot, the follow-through. Like if you just do like that, that's going to be a brick. The follow-through is the finesse part.
So I'm working with them. It comes innately to me, but not to them. And they're like, oh, okay. And so, I just don't spend money on folks; I put them in a position for success. I am very transparent about how law firms work and how they make money, how they lose money. So, we have very transparent conversations regarding how law firms make money. And most lawyers have no idea. You know, they're told to enter billable hours, but they don't know what happens after they enter their time into Coyote or whatever program. We share that with them, and their minds get blown, like, oh, this is why she's asking me to do this by the fifth. Y'all want to get paid, right? So we need your time in by the fifth.
And so, these are things that I didn't know as a young lawyer. I didn't grow up with any lawyers in my family. And most of the attorneys—no matter what their background is—many of them are first-time attorneys. And so, I'm trying to bring them up to speed on what matters with being successful as a lawyer.
[00:18:43] DT: And you mentioned that you had garnered a lot of experience at other law firms. So, when you came to building a compensation model, is it similar to many of the other law firms, or have you also had to craft a different compensation model to fit with your culture?
[00:19:00] AS: Currently, I generate probably 95 percent of the business at the firm, and currently we have nine or ten attorneys. So I went back to just the general rule of three. And it's really easy to explain to someone how their salary is created when you talk about it that way. So, for example, the rule of three is you want your salary to be a hundred thousand dollars. Well, you take that, and you multiply that times three, and then you divide it by the number of hours someone wants to work. And then you understand what the average billable hour will be, and then you can do the math and figure out: you want what salary? Okay, well then, your average billable rate needs to be $500, and your average hours a month need to be here.
And so, you can slide the scales when you're negotiating with a new attorney or partner, so that they understand the business of it. How does the firm make business? And so you have the rule of three. One part is salary, one part's overhead, and one part's profit. What I have found is removing the cloak or the curtain of how law firms pay and how law firms make money, I'm being able to have really great conversations with lawyers about joining the firm because there's nothing hidden. I'm telling you exactly what my game plan is, and you either go with it or you don't.
[00:20:26] DT: Yeah, transparency is important for motivation and for a sense of fairness. Let's come back to media and social media. So two questions together here. One, does your media presence help you win business? Then also, how are you going to bring up other folks in the firm, so that they can be rainmakers too?
[00:20:46] AS: Social media has been a big deal for our firm and having notoriety nationally so far. Now, before five years ago, I did limited, if any, social media. But we created our tagline, “Stewart Law Group: We're on Defense”; “Stewart Law Group: Support Women,” period. And we, like any other brand that you like, stick to who we are.
And so, if you look at our social media presence, you see posts that have a sports tilt to them. For example, we'll post something like, “Huddle up for Cinco de Mayo.” So our themes run through all of our social media posts that we have.
And I speak a lot, and what I don't think minority lawyers understand, which is what I'm really trying to represent, is that we must be seen speaking about things substantively. We need to be an expert in areas. It's not just because I like taking tests that I have all the credentials and certifications that you saw. As minority lawyers, unfortunately, in 2023, we still have to be overqualified. And that is just the world we live in. I can't have a website that doesn't work. I can't have a website that has typos. I just can't. We have to do better.
What I’m doing for others is kind of what we were talking about earlier, taking folks to conferences and training and drilling them on what's required because they can do it. They just don't know how to do it. I want to raise associates that become partners that become equity partners. That is what I want. And I want to teach them along the way how to do it.
I invest a lot of the firm's time and resources in that, and you don't have to be an extrovert to do it. I mean, you just have to figure out where your introverted tribe is. Find them. Because I have imposter syndrome every time I go to a conference. And even today, I want to find a wingman. And so, a lot of the things that I teach them are that I know you feel uncomfortable walking into this ABA Section of Litigation conference. It's so big. There's not many of us that look like you, but you can do it if you have a game plan to get it done. And so, I spend a lot of time and resources trying to: one, show them how to do it; two, give them the skills to do it; and three, support them along the way.
[00:23:20] DT: That sounds quite promising as a pathway ahead, and as you say, you've really got to be strong on the substance and stronger than anybody else to forge ahead. And you didn't mention writing in professional magazines and journals and so forth. Is that part of the outreach and establishing your credentials as well?
[00:23:40] AS: Absolutely. Yeah, I, I miss that. I can't get the young attorneys to write anymore, so maybe you and I can talk offline on how to get that done. But when I was a five-year attorney, any time a Texas Supreme Court case came down about contracts or business commercial litigation, I would write a little article about it, like a case note. I was connected with the ABA Section of Litigation. I still am, and I was chair of the Business Torts Committee.
And so, I had a way that if I wrote something, I could get it published because everybody needs content. And that was sixteen years ago, and that was right when people needed content. Now, everyone needs even more content. And so, I got in the routine of, every quarter, when there were different orders and opinions that came out, I would write about stuff. And people started [noticing], okay, so she does commercial litigation. And so, I am focused on that with my folks. Normally what happens, just like in sports, if you get one person to start doing it, other people will start doing it. But yeah, writing is extremely important. And you can take that content and use it in so many different ways.
[00:24:49] DT: Well, Amy, as an academic and a scholar, I'm just going to finish on that note. Scholarship and writing matter. This has been an inspiring interview. You're the only law firm leader that has started a law firm in the last five years I've interviewed so far, and there [are] a lot of really good lessons in your story to date. And there's a lot of good instruction there for others that want to follow in your footsteps.
It's obviously a hard path to walk, but you've been running on it for quite a while, and I think this is going to be inspirational to many. So thank you so much, and I look forward to meeting you again at some point.
[00:25:25] AS: Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. This was great.